Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

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Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  Man-of-War on Mon May 07, 2012 11:51 pm

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t112539.html

I thought this was a good way of them explaining the balance of warmachine vs hordes....


Hordes has an advantage early game, because they can run hot. Generate massive fury, do massive damage and risk the frenzy. But once they start losing beasts, they run out of fury and have to start cutting.

Whereas, a Warmachine army has a constant flow of focus. A warjack is a drain on resources. A warcaster often gets better late game, because he doesn't have to assign any of his precious focus to jacks.


What he means by cutting I think it costs our locks life to generate fury. Which is risky without beasts to leach off of.

Warmachine:

Consistent flow of focus with or without 'jacks.
Once allocated focus a 'jack can go out of it's casters control range (usually only relevant for a final assassination.)
'Jack's can be disrupted.
When a 'jack is damaged it loses weapon system's as well as it's movement (only stops runs/charges/tramples/slams) and it's cortex (preventing it from gaining focus thereby stopping it from running, charging, using power attacks, and buying attacks). It can still use a damaged weapon but rolls only 1 dice for attack and damage rolls.

Hordes:

Warlocks are reliant on Beasts for Fury.
A Beast is restricted to it's controlling Warlocks control area to do more than it's initial attacks.
As far as I know there is nothing equivalent to disrupting a 'jack for Beasts.
When a Beast is damaged it loses aspects, one stops its from being forced (preventing it from using its animus, running, charging, using power attacks, and buying attacks), one makes the beast to roll 1 dice for attack rolls, and the last makes the beast roll 1 dice for damage rolls.
A Warlock can heal beasts in its battlegroup for 1 point per Fury spent.



That's a couple of entrees from the source up at top. The only thing they left out was damage transferrance for warlocks to warbeasts, but that is risky too. Especially if you rely on the warbeast and your opponent uses the damage transferrance to his advantage by finishing off the warbeast.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  thecapn226 on Tue May 08, 2012 8:00 am

If you kill all the beasts you kill the hordes army. If you kill the warcaster you kill the WM army. A small overlooked difference that is huge.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  Man-of-War on Tue May 08, 2012 6:26 pm

Just an idea so don't kill me.... What about if you slam/throw the caster outside it's controll area for it's beasts. I know it'll be some moving and planning, but if the beasts aren't in the locks control area then he can't damage transfer or force them. That or slam/throw the warbeasts out of his control area before going in to kill the lock. The max fury I seen a lock have is 8 and that's rare. Most have 5-6 fury and very rarely see 7 or 8 fury. Usually the 7-8 fury lock is squishy compaired to the 5-6 fury ones. So the 7-8 fury locks will be holding their ground well behind the front line. The 5-6 fury locks will be on the front lines and are harder to keep fury on in my opinion.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  HereticWolf on Tue May 08, 2012 7:03 pm

Why not go for a full out smash fest on the warlock? If I have 2 jacks and say a full unit of infantry attack on the same turn
That's either quite a few dead war beasts or a dead warlock but either way your still affecting the opposing players army and in most cases you might not get to choose where the damage from the first beast goes but that warlock will probably only be able to sit on 2-3 fury which means splat either that turn or the next.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  thecapn226 on Tue May 08, 2012 10:53 pm

Both are good ideas. It seems that you have to focus on the beasts, then do multiple attacks against lock. I didn't think of the throwing. That would stop transfer, but if lock is stealthed it might hurt.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  Man-of-War on Tue May 08, 2012 11:15 pm

Also another thing just from a trollblood player perspective. I never have fury left on my lock at the end of turn. I'm always using spells/animus too much to sit on fury. Plus I don't want Mulg to turn around and boost hit/damage my lock in melee..... 19 pow weapon to my lock or other warbeasts wouldn't be good. Kinda have to be that way when your lock only has 5 or 6 fury. The max I seen in trolls is 7 fury and that is a very squishy lock.

I don't like running my beasts hot on fury though. Kinda like to have control over them so I don't risk it.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  Man-of-War on Tue May 08, 2012 11:23 pm

Also another thing. A warcaster can send his warjacks with focus outside his control area and still wreck face. A warlock can't send the beasts outside the control area otherwise he can't force/damage transfer to them. So if you think about it. Warcasters has a bit more freedom there.

My problem with warmachine is you have to alocate focus to plan on what your doing for that turn. If you end up not using a focus then you waste it. Focus seems to be more important on the allocation part as Fury is generated by the warbeasts.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  thecapn226 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:58 am

You can allocate focus, and they can move out of range, but then you have to move your caster back into range or you're not allowed to allocate focus next turn. You have to be in range at the start of the turn to allocate focus.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  Man-of-War on Wed May 09, 2012 8:22 pm

Yeah I know.... I was just saying if you didn't need another turn and wrecked the oponent that turn you do that.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  HereticWolf on Sat May 12, 2012 12:43 am

Something I stumbled upon that may address some OP issues.

I have taken this small bit from Thunder_God's posting about game tempo but it's the basic premise for this entire game.

"This is often a game of match-ups, where you try to match your high DEF models to the enemy's low MAT/RAT models; where you try to kill all the opponent's models capable of killing high ARM models and then giving them your Focus-camping caster and hopefully a bunch of heavies, to which they cannot provide a suitable answer. Your goal in the game is to pose questions: "Can you deal with this? And how about now? And now?" You keep asking questions, and keep cranking up the pressure. But of course, this is the exact same thing your opponent will be trying to do. While you try to give him questions which he must answer, he will also pose such questions for you to answer. And the question is who will be able to pose a question the other cannot answer. Sometimes it doesn't work like that, and you both play defensively, or you both play offensively, and someone gets knocked-out, or out-attritioned."
So to me it's saying it's not the system that is the problem at the end of the day it comes down to the player knowing how to play. And as we all know we are all learning the game, rules, and strengths and weaknesses to exploit ect... Just a little food for thought
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  kelmar40k on Mon May 14, 2012 10:22 am

I've played Khador, Legion and Menoth.

In my experience, Warmahordes is roughly as balanced as 40k.

Now, don't get upset with that statement.

What I mean to say, like the other guy, is that it is a game of matchups via individual unit and also army played.

I drop Saeryn and 3 Angelius' on the table it will take someone of high level skill to beat the list. You can't take on Legion with Khador without really knowing what you're doing and what Legion is capable of because they ignore so much of the "standard" rules.

Great game system but perfectly balanced? Nope.

That's why you get to bring 3 different army lists to tourneys.
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Re: Warmachine vs Hordes ...... the balance

Post  Man-of-War on Mon May 14, 2012 9:04 pm

kelmar40k wrote:I've played Khador, Legion and Menoth.

In my experience, Warmahordes is roughly as balanced as 40k.

Now, don't get upset with that statement.

What I mean to say, like the other guy, is that it is a game of matchups via individual unit and also army played.

I drop Saeryn and 3 Angelius' on the table it will take someone of high level skill to beat the list. You can't take on Legion with Khador without really knowing what you're doing and what Legion is capable of because they ignore so much of the "standard" rules.

Great game system but perfectly balanced? Nope.

That's why you get to bring 3 different army lists to tourneys.

Not trying to argue and not offended, but legion are the glass cannon of the factions from warmachine/hordes. Like Dark Eldar are for 40k. They where designed that way. They are built to come in wreck something in their way with overwhelming brute force. If they can't with some of their locks they have a really tough time with things. That's their weakness. Then as you said it comes to the skill of the player to do what's right. If that legion player is skilled it becomes more a game of cat and mouse. Who will make the first mistake of crossing the line as it where lol.

Just coming from what I seen when I play against them. They can dish it, but can't take an onslaught well. I play trollbloods and khador though. -shrugs- Just my two cents.
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